Mises Daily: Minimum wage is badwrong.

Mundane & Pointless Stuff I Must Share: The Off Topic Forum

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Psychic Robot
Prince
Posts: 4607
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 10:47 pm

Mises Daily: Minimum wage is badwrong.

Post by Psychic Robot »

Ever since that "Scrooge Defended" article, I've been intrigued by these guys. Now, along comes something far worse.

Along with the quasi-racism present in the piece, the author advocates eliminating minimum wage. Good grief. Look, we've all seen what happens in an unregulated market in America in the late 1800s and early 1900s: the Triangle Shirtwaist fire.
One of the things that first attracted me to economics is that its logic leads us sometimes to counterintuitive conclusions. A perfect example of this is the regulated workplace. The minimum wage raises incomes for some workers and lowers incomes for others. Workplace safety regulations advantage those who are very risk averse at the expense of those who are willing to accept higher risks in exchange for higher incomes. Laws against "child labor" benefit the relatively well off at the expense of the needy. "Safety regulations are wrong. Child labor is good." What.

The tragic irony of the regulated workplace is that it most adversely affects those on the margins of society. Beyond their disemployment effects on those whose labor is rendered submarginal by regulations on wages and working conditions, regulations in the workplace also exacerbate and perpetuate inequities that would otherwise be mitigated by the market process.

Racism and sexism have been ugly facts about the human social environment since time immemorial. Commentators and critics hypothesize that members of the dominant cultural and ethnic group have advantages stemming from their membership in the dominant ethnic group or socioeconomic class.

I'll use myself as an example. As much as I would like to pride myself on having worked hard to get where I am, my skin color, cultural/religious background, and relatively stable upbringing made for a much less bumpy road to travel than that traveled by those who are less fortunate than I.

It does not follow from this that well-intentioned government intervention that aims to raise wages by legislative fiat is an appropriate corrective. Tragically, a higher minimum wage and workplace-safety regulations are likely to exacerbate rather than mitigate social inequalities by removing the penalties that discriminatory employers would have to pay in a competitive market and by eliminating an important margin on which disadvantaged groups could compete. "If darkies want to be equal, they have to work for $3 an hour in unsafe conditions."

When people aren't allowed to compete on the basis of price, quantity, and quality, firms can discriminate on the basis of something other than productivity.

A racist employer would suffer a penalty (lower profits than his competitors) if he insisted on indulging a "taste for discrimination" in a competitive market. When prices are fixed, and labor conditions are set by law, that same employer can indulge his racist preferences without receiving his capitalist comeuppance. I don't even know what to say to this.

Further, the higher minimum wage takes away a possible advantage for historically disadvantaged groups, and we can illustrate this with a thought experiment that I use in economics 101. Imagine that two people apply for a job at a fast-food restaurant. The first is Crackhead Carl, a middle-aged African-American male who was just released from jail, where he had spent the last few years after stealing from a former employer. Gee, this surely couldn't be offensive to anyone. Carl has seen the light, or so he claims. He has gotten off the drugs, has seen the error of his ways, and sincerely wishes to better his position in spite of having made a gigantic mess of things.

The second applicant is Tad Vanderbilt Rockefeller, a flaxen-haired white teenager from an affluent suburb who parks his BMW, breezes through the door in an Armani suit, and flashes a perfect smile as he fills out a job application with his monogrammed fountain pen. His references are impeccable. So who gets the job?

The answer is, "it depends."

Carl knows that he needs some way to convey his sincerity and fidelity to a prospective employer, and having shredded his credibility through a life of riotous living, people who want to give him the benefit of the doubt nonetheless remain skeptical even though he promises that this time, things will be different. In an unregulated market, Carl could accept lower wages or relatively riskier working conditions in order to compete with Tad. Be that as it may, the idea that someone should risk his bodily integrity by working in an unsafe environment is wrong.

When wages and working conditions are heavily regulated, however, the law cuts off Carl's ability to compete. In all likelihood, Tad would get the job and Carl would again be shoved out onto society's fringes. One of the unintended consequences of the minimum wage and workplace regulations is that they perpetuate inequality.

One might respond that what Carl needs is education, not a dead-end job mopping floors at McDonald's. This may be true, but many valuable skills that are learned in the workplace cannot be learned in a classroom. It is the development of this tacit knowledge and these valuable skills that Carl misses out on by being regulated out of the workplace. "Regulations keep those colored folks from being valuable members of the workplace."

In this case, the choice was pretty clear. Tad appears to have been a less risky choice than Carl whether the employer is a racist or not. But racism is an entrepreneurial error, and one that should be quickly punished in the marketplace. With restrictions on the way the labor market functions, the entrepreneurial error (and moral abomination) that is racism can go uncorrected.

Milton Friedman openly argued that minimum-wage laws are racist in effect if not intent; in the early 1960s, he pointed out that, as a result of higher minimum wages, black teenage unemployment was much higher than it would otherwise be. Denied the opportunity to earn incomes and to acquire valuable skills, those adversely affected by the minimum wage were not allowed to share in the general prosperity that a market economy produces. Meanwhile, the rest of America enjoys not working for $1 a day, risking their limbs in open machinery while their corporate masters roll around in heaps of money like Scrooge McDuck. Empirical evidence reported by economists David Neumark and William Wascher suggests that among the long-run effects of minimum wages are lower degrees of educational attainment, less on-the-job training, and lower lifetime earnings.

In The Fatal Conceit, F.A. Hayek said that "[t]he curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."

In an imperfect world, we suffer from a "fatal conceit" when we imagine that we can make justice roll down like waters and make righteousness like an ever-flowing stream just by passing laws that say "make it so." Indeed, laws like this will more often than not make justice and righteousness roll more slowly by perpetuating the inequalities that have historically worked against disadvantaged groups.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

Most of that piece is completely indefensible gibberish. Some of it is defensible and requires actual rebuttal. Not a lot of it, but some. Of course, the entire thing fails to basic incredulity: historically speaking the regulated workplace did not lead to spiralling unemployment - in fact the opposite occurred. The Mises Institute's basic model then becomes hard to justify. The simple question "How come every time we raise taxes, the unemployment rate goes down, and every time we lower taxes, the unemployment rate goes up? (see 1981, 1983, 1932, and 2006)" is a question that their model cannot answer. So their model as a whole is at best incomplete.

And yet, there are some things they say that on the surface make logical sense. So a competing model you might actually use has to take those points into account.

Minimum Wage Reduces Employment

Supply and Demand, right? The contention is that if you increase the minimum wage, you set an artificial price point for some labor above the level that employers are willing to pay for it, you eliminate those jobs, everyone else's job stays unaffected, and nothing else happens, right? All you've really done is fired the people earning the least, introduced additional competition for the remaining jobs (putting downward pressure on those wages), and no working man benefits. At least, that's the argument, and people were making it on the floor of Britain's parliament as recently as 10 years ago.

So why doesn't that happen? Sure, you can go look at the historical introduction of a minimum wage in New Zealand in 1894 all the way to the United Kingdom n 1999 and not find any evidence that unemployment actually spikes in reaction to minimum wage laws, but why not is a pretty valid question to ask.

The answer is kind of complicated. The first part of course, is that the Boss Man isn't paying you a dollar an hour because that's all he's willing to pay, he's paying you that because he can. And indeed, when everyone getting paid a dollar an hour is suddenly being paid real money, there is a lot more money in the hands of consumers - the demand for all goods increases, and employment tends to rise in response to that sort of thing. The profitability of making hamburgers has gone down, but there are more people to sell hamburgers to, which encourages people to hire more hamburger makers, which means that there are even more hamburgers to be sold, and so on.

The economy is largely demand driven, and shifting money into the hands of the consumer spurs investment as long as there is any investment to be done. And well, we almost never actually run out of potential investment dollars, and as long as anyone anywhere has a pile of gold under their mattress, we won't. And investment hires people.

Workplace Safety Drives Down Wages

The proper response to this idea is probably "Lolwut?" followed by pointing to wages and standards of living in Norway and Haiti. But there's a legitimate argument buried in there that needs a more complex analysis. Many dangerous careers come with substantial monetary compensation (firefighter, ice road trucker, oil rig operator), and a number of those are actually quite valuable to society at large. So there would seem to be a legitimate concern somewhere in there about eliminating dangerous jobs and the associated high paychecks that the risk taking workers are enticed by.

And that's all well and good, but the thing is that putting fire extinguishers into chicken fixing plants didn't seem to depress wages anywhere. Indeed, the opposite happened. And this is basically because people don't actually know how to evaluate risk very well. Some careers have obvious dangers (like police officer and flight engineer), but most of the dangerous aren't really very obvious. Did you know that farmer is a more dangerous career than trash collector? Neither did I until I looked that up. That's counterintuitive until you remember that farmers work with heavy machinery far away from hospitals and other people on a regular basis, meaning that a lot of their injuries are fatal when they wouldn't have been in a comparably injured city worker.

If you asked the average person whether "miner" or "taxi driver" should get more hazard pay, you'd get almost every single person giving you the same answer - and it would be wrong. The correct answer of course, is taxi driver, since they have about 5% more workplace fatalities per person than miners do.

And that's basically the long and the short of it. Workers in steel mills do not really know what their real risks of receiving catastrophic burns from equipment failure are. So if you force the company to perform regular maintenance on the equipment, less people will die but the people being saved will not know that anything happened. So wages don't change.

-Username17
Parthenon
Knight-Baron
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:07 pm

Post by Parthenon »

I can almost see where he's coming from. Don't people complain about the fact that illegal immigrants don't get paid minimum wage and so work for cheaper and take people's jobs. So, he's trying to say that everyone should be able to do the same, meaning that theres less problems with immigration.

Which is bullshit. Since illegal immigrants don't have to pay taxes and are willing to work in worse conditions it just means that they still get the jobs and pay for everyone goes down.

I think his main point is that people should be able to choose to not be paid minimum wage. Which is a false choice since employers will only have jobs that require you to choose not to be paid minimum wage.

Urgh, it makes no damn sense.

I had this stupid idea a while back concerning minimum wage- what would happen if it was illegal to sell things that the people working on had been paid less than minimum wage or at less than a certain level of health and safety?

Outsourcing would make no sense since it also has networking costs, child labour and sweat shops would be stopped and dangerous mining and so on would be improved. Employment would go up in some countries and minimum wage would quickly level out between countries to be the same.

However, immigration would rapidly increase and third world countries would quickly get worse.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

parthenon wrote:I had this stupid idea a while back concerning minimum wage- what would happen if it was illegal to sell things that the people working on had been paid less than minimum wage or at less than a certain level of health and safety?

Outsourcing would make no sense since it also has networking costs, child labour and sweat shops would be stopped and dangerous mining and so on would be improved. Employment would go up in some countries and minimum wage would quickly level out between countries to be the same.
Not a stupid idea, just one that needs refinement. Minimum Wage laws don't destroy the workforce because they are not set high enough to drive investment out of the economy. If you set the Minimum Wage high enough, it actually would cause industry to collapse. You probably can't afford to pay people $100k a year to work retail at The Gap, so if the minimum wage was in the $40-50 an hour range, you'd expect a lot of businesses to go under (also: hyper inflation to go with your high unemployment). And that sounds like ridiculous hyperbole - and for the Western markets it is, because no one is suggesting raising the Minimum Wage that high.

The problem is that workers in Haiti just aren't as productive as workers in the United States or Denmark. An hour of Ivory Coast or Malayasian labor is just worth less than an hour of Australian or Swiss labor. So if you had to pay Bangladeshi textile workers $7.25 an hour, you just wouldn't do it at all - because that would be a lot like paying Alabamans $40 an hour to do the same work. Again, that sounds like hyperbole, but it's not. In Norway, the GDP per employed person is 103 thousand dollars. That means that the average employed Norwegian is worth more than a hundred thousand dollars a year, South Koreans are worth fifty seven thousand dollars a year, and if you leave the OECD those numbers halve and halve again.

You just cannot stay in business hiring illiterates from Cambodia at Californian or even Arkansas wages. Which of course, would be a good deal of the goal of such a move. By increasing the marginal cost of producing goods outside of the OECD, the OECD would in effect be incentivizing companies to invest in production inside the OECD. A form of hostile protectionism to benefit their own people (in the form of increased employment opportunities), at the cost of reducing trade (and all that entails).

The problem of course, is that there are some things that really only can be produced in non-OECD nations. Like Bananas. And if you enforce OECD levels of environmental protection and working wages on those regions suddenly, production in those sectors will cease, and I won't be able to eat bananas any more.

So it's a fine line. Obviously you want to crack down on slave labor around the world, because it's morally imperative that you do so and also it has a noticeable benefit in terms of reduced unemployment at home. But you can't reasonably expect other countries to adopt the Minimum Wage of a developed country over night. However, a simple "international minimum wage" below which workers are considered to be "slaves" and their goods deemed contraband - would be a pretty rational and effective piece of policy. If only we could get it past Nike's lobbyists.

-Username17
User avatar
mean_liar
Duke
Posts: 2187
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Boston

Post by mean_liar »

Enforcing that standard and finding developing countries willing to sign on to it would be another. You'd need to tie it into low-interest loan guarantees (to ensure the beneficiary businesses a risk cushion) or something, and at that point you've basically instituted a world-wide socialist wealth distribution program... which has a hell of a lot more folks against it than just Nike lobbyists.

I don't think we'll see equalization like that until the developing countries stumble into it, and to me I just imagine that meaning that textile factories in Bangladesh and Cambodia move to Africa... solving nothing until those places get a piece of the pie as well.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

mean_liar wrote:Enforcing that standard and finding developing countries willing to sign on to it would be another. You'd need to tie it into low-interest loan guarantees (to ensure the beneficiary businesses a risk cushion) or something, and at that point you've basically instituted a world-wide socialist wealth distribution program... which has a hell of a lot more folks against it than just Nike lobbyists.

I don't think we'll see equalization like that until the developing countries stumble into it, and to me I just imagine that meaning that textile factories in Bangladesh and Cambodia move to Africa... solving nothing until those places get a piece of the pie as well.
You couldn't get Myanmar to sign on to it at all. But of course, you wouldn't be asking them to. You'd be asking the OECD nations to sign on and stick to their guns.

The legislation would be that if a particular good had been produced at "slave wages" that the good would be contraband and not legal to be sold in any OECD nation. You'd define slave wages at some low (but not that low) value, and then you'd sit back and confiscate anything that you thought was being produced with wages below those values.

Essentially you'd be telling China and Cambodia that they could choose o pay their workers more or they could choose to revalue their currency or they could choose to not sell their goods in the US or EU. And China would be super pissed. But if you set the bar low enough, they'd have to eat it the way we have to eat China continuously (and lawfully) buying our savings bonds.

-Username17
User avatar
Murtak
Duke
Posts: 1577
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Murtak »

The entire debate sounds like some kind of nested tragedy of the commons to me. When you look at a single unemployed worker, it may well be a good deal for him to work below minimum wage. Beats not getting paid at all, right? Then you widen your perspective a bit and see that the company hiring him would then only hire below minimum wage, meaning he is back to square one (unemployed) but everyone is getting paid less. Meanwhile the company CEO is ecstatic - lower wages mean more profit, right? Sure ... but then you widen your perspective again and see everyone hiring below minimum wage, thereby totally trashing demand. No one is able to buy anything and no more profit for anyone. "Ah" the CEO says, "but we will just sell in other countries!". And indeed that works. Right until everyone does what you do. Back to square one, except everyone is miserable.

Short version: What is rational to a single person, company or even country leads to disaster when everyone does it. The only way to stop the vicious circle is by cooperation. Enforced cooperation if need be. Hence regulation.
Murtak
RiotGearEpsilon
Knight
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:39 am
Location: Cambridge, Massachusetts

Post by RiotGearEpsilon »

Murtak wrote:The entire debate sounds like some kind of nested tragedy of the commons to me. When you look at a single unemployed worker, it may well be a good deal for him to work below minimum wage. Beats not getting paid at all, right? Then you widen your perspective a bit and see that the company hiring him would then only hire below minimum wage, meaning he is back to square one (unemployed) but everyone is getting paid less. Meanwhile the company CEO is ecstatic - lower wages mean more profit, right? Sure ... but then you widen your perspective again and see everyone hiring below minimum wage, thereby totally trashing demand. No one is able to buy anything and no more profit for anyone. "Ah" the CEO says, "but we will just sell in other countries!". And indeed that works. Right until everyone does what you do. Back to square one, except everyone is miserable.

Short version: What is rational to a single person, company or even country leads to disaster when everyone does it. The only way to stop the vicious circle is by cooperation. Enforced cooperation if need be. Hence regulation.
This is a superb summary!
User avatar
Crissa
King
Posts: 6720
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Santa Cruz

Post by Crissa »

A racist employer would suffer a penalty (lower profits than his competitors) if he insisted on indulging a "taste for discrimination" in a competitive market. When prices are fixed, and labor conditions are set by law, that same employer can indulge his racist preferences without receiving his capitalist comeuppance.
'Minorities make crappy employees.'

Ugh.

-Crissa
K
King
Posts: 6487
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by K »

It doesn't take a lot of reading into macro-economics to figure out that pure capitalism is a recipe for destruction because it contains within it a number of completely contradictory ideas.

For example, there is the idea that competition is good, and it lowers prices. That being said, capitalism also embraces no regulation on its action.

But competing companies will not want to compete. What they want is to become monopolies by driving each other out of business, and to achieve that end they use anything from law suits to just straight price fixing. Once they are a monopoly, competition is over. Walmart is famous for coming to small towns, setting the prices of their goods so low that everyone else goes out of business, and then once that is done they raise prices above their former competitors prices. Only Walmart wins, and everyone loses.

The only thing that stops that kind of action is regulation, which capitalism doesn't like.

I'm hoping that the next fifty years of economic thought will be informed more by game theory, and less by aristocrats trying to stay on top. Micro-economics is simple..... you can teach a child to buy low and sell high, but macroeconomics needs to embrace the idea that behavior which is advantagous to the individual is often activily harmful to the system, and that the goal of the economy is to get goods and services from people into the hands of other people in exchange for their goods and services, and not to create the highest proportion of rich guys who can afford servants and ridiculously-priced sportcars .
Last edited by K on Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Neeeek
Knight-Baron
Posts: 900
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:45 am

Post by Neeeek »

K wrote:
But competing companies will not want to compete. What they want is to become monopolies by driving each other out of business, and to achieve that end they use anything from law suits to just straight price fixing.
Oh please. In pure capitalism, murder is an acceptable tactic.
K
King
Posts: 6487
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by K »

Neeeek wrote:
K wrote:
But competing companies will not want to compete. What they want is to become monopolies by driving each other out of business, and to achieve that end they use anything from law suits to just straight price fixing.
Oh please. In pure capitalism, murder is an acceptable tactic.
Yes, that is completely true.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic for some unchecked capitalism in action (also known as Chiquita Banana's death squads).
Last edited by K on Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

Thank you Maxus, that is very well put. It is important to remember that in many (perhaps most) cases, the lesson of the commons is that regulation and cooperation are necessary to avert catastrophe.

I am also left thinking of the opening to the Treasure of the Sierra Madre:
Anyone who is willing to work and is serious about it will certainly find a job. Only you must not go to the man who tells you this, for he has no job to offer and doesn’t know anyone who knows of a vacancy. This is exactly the reason why he gives you such generous advice, out of brotherly love, and to demonstrate how little he knows the world.
-Username17
Post Reply